Hi Joy, thank you for including me on this list and sharing your experience of loving manic pixie men. I signed up to read that article and am glad I did. The truth, for me at least, is that I recognize myself in some of your testimony about emotionally unavailable men.
The difference is that I've stopped claiming to be looking for a long-term partnership and that I'm ready to do the work. I don't run into a woman's arms to soothe my wounds or feelings of inadequacy.
I've been doing the work for years in therapy, and while yes, I would love a partnership and long for all that it can bring, I know I still have some work to do.
I love the suggestion of asking your male partner if they're open to fuck around with a bit of healing, and I hope they say yes. Because we're in a world of collective pain if most men can't turn their attention inward to what's happening inside.
Thanks again for the list, I'm excited to continue reading you and some of the men included.
As a white woman, this discussion makes me reflect on how the (not dissimilar) Not All White People argument allows white people to avoid acknowledging and being accountable for our contributions to white supremacy and racism.
Men believe the mythology they built about women, during a time when women were forced into dependence. Finding out that none of that was true, but an extreme coping mechanism and trauma response is... disappointing to them. They can't cope with the reality of free women and what our actual nature is. Something very different from what they've grown up believing they were owed due to some innate superiority. They still want to believe it is women's nature to live through them. When this species doesn't even mate for life. Patriarchal civilization is built on the enslavement of half the human race for the benefit of the other half. And many men would rather just go back to "tradition" than to do the healing required to transform into a new era that works for everyone. These are scary times. And I can say that I, like many women, would rather unalive that go back to that.
To add to what Annabelle's saying: Often when women make a seemingly blamket statement about men, a) we're fully aware that the specific statement we're making in that moment is not necessarily true of every single man in existence. And b) more importantly (though perhaps less obviously), it's shorthand for: the patriarchy. What were really saying is: The *system* that teaches boys and men to [fill in horrific thing here] is what's really fucked up here. Individual men (like all people) are still responsible for their own shit, but it's simultaneously true that our society is relentlessly trying to mold them all into alpha bros. HTH.
I get that and agree change is needed. But I still think it's important to separate individuals from a system. If you're referencing a system, state that. Lumping all men together and implying we are collectively synonymous with oppression is an unhelpful practice/frame, particularly if the intention is to foster connection and make progress together (which I presume it is).
lol. Not all men, right? Look. My father was like a saint. Not many men can be better. But the more I look back on it, I see the privilege and his brand of misogyny. ALL men need to deal with the reality of ALL men. It's the work of this century if we don't want to all devolve or experience an apocalypse.
To piggyback off of what Annabelle said, it’s not the responsibility of the non-male population of the world to educate men and help them rewrite the blueprints of prejudice they created in the first place.
It’s such a privilege to be able to even “well, actually” in response to her statement. The patriarchy intentionally keeps us down. I think it’s important to keep the little mantra of “if it doesn’t apply, let it fly” in mind, though.
I don’t tear up easily, but this one got me in the end. You’re really driving home and restoring the complexity, the nuance, and beauty of relationships — breaking down the outdated patriarchal binary way of thinking. Love love.
This article is subtle, true and generous. I like to think of myself as a "good" man, but the fact is I've done plenty of shitty things that have hurt people I love, and sometimes people I don't. "Good" and "bad" are unhelpful distinctions. Our actions and the impact they have on ourselves and others are what matters. Being adult, whole, or whatever else you might name it rests largely on taking full responsibility for all of it.
I loved this article, Joy. It speaks to the part of me that has been searching for a way to name the ache and grief and exhaustion while remembering the humanity of others. Thank you for lending your voice to us all this way and for including the lists at the end!
Love this, Joy! I agree with you on the fallacy of this binary. We all have the capacity to evolve, to take accountability, to heal and to do better. And it’s wonderful that you and R. have managed to create a new type of relationship on the other side of that.
I was attracted this article over the provocative title, and I must say the article was equally provocative. It’s also equally as confusing. I enjoyed the anecdote of you and R having a close bond in your own way, but the rest of the article kind of fell apart in my opinion. It was a read that made me think though, so that's appreciated.
The rebuttal of the “good men” argument doesn’t seem like a disagreement. I would think most people pointing out there are good men aren’t claiming men, like any human being, are perfect and aren’t accountable for their own actions or are incapable of or unwilling to engage in self-reflection. A lot of the men you described as being in in-between places that are showing up to therapy and not giving up on themselves many people would describe as good men. Maybe if the implication is more around who to date people would take additional or different factors into account. When two people are trying to figure out if there is a future they can plan together personality and “goodness” are part of what many people think about, but there is often more that people consider too.
If the rebuttal of the “good men” argument is partially based in a response to an evangelical upbringing, I would wonder who taught you human beings are inherently sinful in that context as that is not even biblical. There is a “sin nature” in the sense that people are born with the ability to rebel against God, that human beings have an innate knowledge of good and evil, and that they deal with temptation. It’s a misnomer to say simply by existing human beings are sinning. The very concept of sin requires conscious choice.
All this being said, it seems the good men discussion is used as a prelude for women not being heard in the modern age and that a new model of communication of “listening, witnessing, and insisting on one another’s goodness” should be made. This may just be me, but I don’t think this is new and has been around for at least 10 years. Between movements like MeToo and various campaigns to push for acceptance of goodness/personhood/identity/choice, whatever one may call it, there are parades, new approaches to therapy, corporate initiatives, educational materials, and academic programs that have sprung up around this kind of mindset. There is a lot of support for your position.
I have a similar relationship with my ex, and not everyone understands that type of love (thankfully, my current partner and my ex’s new partner understand the dynamic). It’s a form of unconditional love and growing beside each other. My ex is almost unrecognizable compared to who he was before, like he shook off a fog and is now clear-eyed. I’m very happy for him with how he took his personal journey toward healing, which has inspired my own.
First of all I love the name "Necessary Salt" fits like a glove and thank you for the good read!
"I think men feel overwhelmed by the force of women’s hurt these days, but we’re not asking for perfection."
I will confirm it does feel that way especially when the entire history of man is held up to your face as if you are the cause of all that historic suffering. Sometimes it sounds as if women think all men get together under a volcano or some other suitably sinister lair to plot the oppression of women (if they do I've never been invited). As scary as this might sound I don't think the patriarchy was designed at least at first. It would probably be easier to dismantle if it was. I think like the rest of nature it worked and we survived as a species, so it continued. What was once a simple survival strategy slowly became something twisted and horrible. And in what might be the worst mistake humanity has ever made the idea of male dominance was enforced through religious and spiritual traditions. The very things that should be bring us together. I don't really believe in the devil but if I was a such a being, that would be how I would divide humanity against itself.
Beautiful as always, and you got the hope part right. Sometimes it feels so despondent to try to explain this over and over, and it’s nice to feel how gently you threaded your own feelings of hope into the broader sentiment of grief.
Gosh I really don’t want to be the person to point this out, but on a post about the collective pain and exhaustion that women feel when men center their own experience, and claim “not all men” instead of listening to the pain, you quite literally did both of those things in the two posts you made here and as a comment on an earlier post. Woof. The good news is I know you can handle this feedback based on the work you’re doing in the world.
You know what? Upon reflection, you're absolutely right. While it certainly wasn't my intention, I can see how I look and acted like a complete asshole here. I'm sorry for any pain, sighs, or eye rolls I caused in my clumsy attempt at support. Thanks for speaking up and helping me learn something important today. I appreciate you doing that.
Hi Joy, thank you for including me on this list and sharing your experience of loving manic pixie men. I signed up to read that article and am glad I did. The truth, for me at least, is that I recognize myself in some of your testimony about emotionally unavailable men.
The difference is that I've stopped claiming to be looking for a long-term partnership and that I'm ready to do the work. I don't run into a woman's arms to soothe my wounds or feelings of inadequacy.
I've been doing the work for years in therapy, and while yes, I would love a partnership and long for all that it can bring, I know I still have some work to do.
I love the suggestion of asking your male partner if they're open to fuck around with a bit of healing, and I hope they say yes. Because we're in a world of collective pain if most men can't turn their attention inward to what's happening inside.
Thanks again for the list, I'm excited to continue reading you and some of the men included.
Thanks so much for this lovely note, Shaun. Just subscribed to you also and look forward to reading you.
As a white woman, this discussion makes me reflect on how the (not dissimilar) Not All White People argument allows white people to avoid acknowledging and being accountable for our contributions to white supremacy and racism.
100%
Men believe the mythology they built about women, during a time when women were forced into dependence. Finding out that none of that was true, but an extreme coping mechanism and trauma response is... disappointing to them. They can't cope with the reality of free women and what our actual nature is. Something very different from what they've grown up believing they were owed due to some innate superiority. They still want to believe it is women's nature to live through them. When this species doesn't even mate for life. Patriarchal civilization is built on the enslavement of half the human race for the benefit of the other half. And many men would rather just go back to "tradition" than to do the healing required to transform into a new era that works for everyone. These are scary times. And I can say that I, like many women, would rather unalive that go back to that.
*SOME men believe... I'm cautious of continuing to paint with such a broad brush to speak for all men or lump us all together.
To add to what Annabelle's saying: Often when women make a seemingly blamket statement about men, a) we're fully aware that the specific statement we're making in that moment is not necessarily true of every single man in existence. And b) more importantly (though perhaps less obviously), it's shorthand for: the patriarchy. What were really saying is: The *system* that teaches boys and men to [fill in horrific thing here] is what's really fucked up here. Individual men (like all people) are still responsible for their own shit, but it's simultaneously true that our society is relentlessly trying to mold them all into alpha bros. HTH.
I get that and agree change is needed. But I still think it's important to separate individuals from a system. If you're referencing a system, state that. Lumping all men together and implying we are collectively synonymous with oppression is an unhelpful practice/frame, particularly if the intention is to foster connection and make progress together (which I presume it is).
lol. Not all men, right? Look. My father was like a saint. Not many men can be better. But the more I look back on it, I see the privilege and his brand of misogyny. ALL men need to deal with the reality of ALL men. It's the work of this century if we don't want to all devolve or experience an apocalypse.
To piggyback off of what Annabelle said, it’s not the responsibility of the non-male population of the world to educate men and help them rewrite the blueprints of prejudice they created in the first place.
It’s such a privilege to be able to even “well, actually” in response to her statement. The patriarchy intentionally keeps us down. I think it’s important to keep the little mantra of “if it doesn’t apply, let it fly” in mind, though.
I don’t tear up easily, but this one got me in the end. You’re really driving home and restoring the complexity, the nuance, and beauty of relationships — breaking down the outdated patriarchal binary way of thinking. Love love.
This article is subtle, true and generous. I like to think of myself as a "good" man, but the fact is I've done plenty of shitty things that have hurt people I love, and sometimes people I don't. "Good" and "bad" are unhelpful distinctions. Our actions and the impact they have on ourselves and others are what matters. Being adult, whole, or whatever else you might name it rests largely on taking full responsibility for all of it.
None are free until we are all free
I loved this article, Joy. It speaks to the part of me that has been searching for a way to name the ache and grief and exhaustion while remembering the humanity of others. Thank you for lending your voice to us all this way and for including the lists at the end!
Love this, Joy! I agree with you on the fallacy of this binary. We all have the capacity to evolve, to take accountability, to heal and to do better. And it’s wonderful that you and R. have managed to create a new type of relationship on the other side of that.
I was attracted this article over the provocative title, and I must say the article was equally provocative. It’s also equally as confusing. I enjoyed the anecdote of you and R having a close bond in your own way, but the rest of the article kind of fell apart in my opinion. It was a read that made me think though, so that's appreciated.
The rebuttal of the “good men” argument doesn’t seem like a disagreement. I would think most people pointing out there are good men aren’t claiming men, like any human being, are perfect and aren’t accountable for their own actions or are incapable of or unwilling to engage in self-reflection. A lot of the men you described as being in in-between places that are showing up to therapy and not giving up on themselves many people would describe as good men. Maybe if the implication is more around who to date people would take additional or different factors into account. When two people are trying to figure out if there is a future they can plan together personality and “goodness” are part of what many people think about, but there is often more that people consider too.
If the rebuttal of the “good men” argument is partially based in a response to an evangelical upbringing, I would wonder who taught you human beings are inherently sinful in that context as that is not even biblical. There is a “sin nature” in the sense that people are born with the ability to rebel against God, that human beings have an innate knowledge of good and evil, and that they deal with temptation. It’s a misnomer to say simply by existing human beings are sinning. The very concept of sin requires conscious choice.
All this being said, it seems the good men discussion is used as a prelude for women not being heard in the modern age and that a new model of communication of “listening, witnessing, and insisting on one another’s goodness” should be made. This may just be me, but I don’t think this is new and has been around for at least 10 years. Between movements like MeToo and various campaigns to push for acceptance of goodness/personhood/identity/choice, whatever one may call it, there are parades, new approaches to therapy, corporate initiatives, educational materials, and academic programs that have sprung up around this kind of mindset. There is a lot of support for your position.
I have a similar relationship with my ex, and not everyone understands that type of love (thankfully, my current partner and my ex’s new partner understand the dynamic). It’s a form of unconditional love and growing beside each other. My ex is almost unrecognizable compared to who he was before, like he shook off a fog and is now clear-eyed. I’m very happy for him with how he took his personal journey toward healing, which has inspired my own.
First of all I love the name "Necessary Salt" fits like a glove and thank you for the good read!
"I think men feel overwhelmed by the force of women’s hurt these days, but we’re not asking for perfection."
I will confirm it does feel that way especially when the entire history of man is held up to your face as if you are the cause of all that historic suffering. Sometimes it sounds as if women think all men get together under a volcano or some other suitably sinister lair to plot the oppression of women (if they do I've never been invited). As scary as this might sound I don't think the patriarchy was designed at least at first. It would probably be easier to dismantle if it was. I think like the rest of nature it worked and we survived as a species, so it continued. What was once a simple survival strategy slowly became something twisted and horrible. And in what might be the worst mistake humanity has ever made the idea of male dominance was enforced through religious and spiritual traditions. The very things that should be bring us together. I don't really believe in the devil but if I was a such a being, that would be how I would divide humanity against itself.
Beautiful as always, and you got the hope part right. Sometimes it feels so despondent to try to explain this over and over, and it’s nice to feel how gently you threaded your own feelings of hope into the broader sentiment of grief.
This is fantastic! (Also I’d add Pdx’s own Brian Benson to the list of male writers btw). So glad to be following you!
Here's a post I made that may be helpful for those seeking exposure therapy. It's a list and description of 12 good men to follow on Instagram: https://substack.com/@longdistancelovebombs/p-154101826
Gosh I really don’t want to be the person to point this out, but on a post about the collective pain and exhaustion that women feel when men center their own experience, and claim “not all men” instead of listening to the pain, you quite literally did both of those things in the two posts you made here and as a comment on an earlier post. Woof. The good news is I know you can handle this feedback based on the work you’re doing in the world.
You know what? Upon reflection, you're absolutely right. While it certainly wasn't my intention, I can see how I look and acted like a complete asshole here. I'm sorry for any pain, sighs, or eye rolls I caused in my clumsy attempt at support. Thanks for speaking up and helping me learn something important today. I appreciate you doing that.